[I must limit my posts from comments. These unmoderated comments are sure to throw up lots of eccentric, idiotic, and parochial mumblings. This blog is to highlight those mumblings that manage to surface to the ST Forum page. But here, i selected these posts because it one man asks a questions with all sincerity and personal angst, and someone answers with all sincerity, but after that things just goes nuts.]
AbolishNS2abolishNS
6 Mar 10:15 AM
*2 of my uncles and one of my aunties were killed by the Japanese when they invaded Singapore; similar to many other people who were either tortured or killed in Singapore at that time.
My grandparents and father suffered hunger and humiliations during the Japanese occupation of Singapore.
My father told me to do my National Service well
Without being a regular; I contributed until the rank of Major [NS] and was CO of one Guards Battalion and Brigade Dy S3.
*But now traitors had let in excessive numbers of cheap foreigners; invaded n mess up our lives in Singapore. This is same like the Japanese enemies who invaded n exploited Singapore 2 generations ago.
Many of us lost our biz, are jobless, missed local university places, missed scholarships, missed preferred primary school places, lost COEs, couldn’t afford public HDB flats, disrupted by foreigner queues jumping for buses, for trains, for tickets, etc. We are forced to be more boorish.
Many of us got squeezed out of PMET jobs and now have to work as taxi drivers, insurance n financial derivatives agents, property agents, etc.
*Now my 80+ yrs old father have to stand while foreigners occupy Priority/Reserved seats in MRT trains and queue behind foreigners at hospitals n polyclinics.
Foreigner enemies are all here amongst us and probably the only task left for our uniformed armed forces is to help our ruling party clear oppositions n protestors from our streets.
Now, unlike my father, I tell my sons that National Service is meaningless.
I also told my sons not to hurry in marriage and least of all having children who may become financial slaves to the banks thru buying expensive houses, cars, and also tax slaves etc.
IQ is genetic; ordinary locals got squeezed down the artificial Population ‘Bell Curve’ by foreigners in Singapore.
Quotas in Uni, JCs, Polys limiting locals plus FTs also squeezed us down the artificial Population 'Bell Curve' in Sgp.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar 02:37 PM
AbolishNS2abolishNS (Major NS CO Guards BN DYS3), (Page 1, 10.15am),
allow me a contrarian view on your "NS is meaningless" comment.
My family and me were born here and lived here all our lives. If SG ever got attacked by an invading army I WILL defend it. Just because certain govt policies do not fit me doesn't mean I would hand SG over to the enemy on a silver platter. I am NOT, repeat NOT, defending the govt, foreign talents, elites and permanent residents. To me these are SEPERATE ISSUES.
SG became a Japanese colony (Syonanto) Feb. 1942 - Aug. 1945 because we did not have an armed forces. Our British colonial masters surrendered unconditionally to the Japanese. Nobody owes SG a living. We are responsible for our own defence and cannot rely solely on foreign powers . My maternal grandfather an admin assistant in the British Army was taken away by Japanese troops never to be seen or heard of again. My mother who was six years old at that time grew up without a father. The rape and slaughter of civilians was common. My late grandmother said, "To say that life was tough under the Japanese occupation is a gross understatement."
When SG got kicked out of the M'sian federation (1965) we had nothing and started from scratch. Today despite warts and all, I am confident that the SAF can more than hold its own in this region. I believe when the $hit hits the fan, many SG men including the anti-NS crowd (and those who poke fun at the SAF) would defend SG with their lives BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE PROTECTING THEIR LOVED ONES. If SG falls it means we lose our loved ones, our life savings in the banks, our CPF and homes. We lose EVERYTHING except the clothes on our backs and become instant penniless refugees.
This post is NOT arrogance, boot licking, self congratulations, chest thumping, complacency or scare mongering. That is NOT my intention. Neither am I an elite. I am just an ordinary working man Joe who doesn't even make $2k salary per month.
Thank You for reading
f14d_tomcat
Corporal (NS)
[Proceed beyond this point at your own risk. :-) This is when the same old dead horse with new bows and ribbons gets trotted out.]
BPLforever
6 Mar, 02:54 PM
f14d_tomcat,
Many Singaporeans, including myself, are willing to give up our lives to fight for our country but that doesn't mean we should die in vain. It is pointless to fight if we know that Singapore cannot be defended.
Please help my friends and me understand the role of so many foreigners here in Singapore when we risk our lives for this country.
Suppose Singapore was in a conflict with Vietnam. Now, we all know that there are more than 100,00 Vietnamese citizens living and working here. Many for selfish reasons, have become PRs.
What do you think these Vietnamese would be doing when all Singaporean males are abroad fighting?
Now we all know that Singaporean has a very credible army. Suppose we had the upper hand and were wiping out many Vietnamese soldiers. How do you think these Vietnamese living here would feel and what would do you think they will do? Many of them have family members in the Vietnamese army after all? What if their familiy members got killed? Would they be supporting Singapore's cause or sabotaging our efforts?
Would they harm our helpless wives and children left behind in Singapore?
My friend and I are very concerned about this? We can concentrate on defending our country without knowing how these Vietnamese citizens, who are loyal to their home country, would behave.
If they are going to sabotage our efforts and attack the helpless women and children here, it makes no sense to have NS.
Maybe we will not have any conflict with our neighbouring countries, you say. NS is to defend against aliens from Mars???
Tell us why then NS is so important. I still don't get it with so many foreigners here and 2 million more on their way here.
Please explain to us.
Blind faith and blind allegiance doesn't win wars.
RotiPrataMan
6 Mar, 03:13 PM
14d_tomcat
Vietnam was taken as an example by BPLforever.
Imagine a different scenario and let's say Singapore goes to war against anyone of these countries :
China
Philippines
Thailand
Malaysia
Indonesia..
all of which have more than 100,000 of their citizens living in Singapore as FWs / FTs / PRs.
Would they harm our helpless wives and children left behind in Singapore when you go off to fight their countrymen ??
It's not a silly or irrelevant question..
So, please let us have your true and honest answer on it.
f14d_tomcat
Yesterday, 03:37 PM
BPLforever (2.56pm),
Scroll down to the LAST POST to get your answer here http://comment.straitstimes.com/show...=30272&page=22 First you claim 200,000 Vietnamese in SG, now you say 100,000. Can you make up your mind?
RotiPrataMan (3.13PM),
Your answer is on the link provided above. Supposing going by your scenario the SAF goes to war against one of these countries and these non-military trained FTs, PRs, FWs attack S'poreans. Would you fight back against them to protect your loved ones and your property? I strongly believe you would. That is the essence of my post all along.
f14d_tomcat
February 24, 2010 Wednesday, 03:52 AM [From an on-line comment on "Quality of life that's hard to beat" which apparently precedes this on-going discussion between BPLforever and f14d_tomcat]
BPLforever,
Here's my view on why NS is a necessary evil. However before I begin let me state categorically that I DO NOT think that S'poreans who emigrate are 'Quitters' as some are wont to do. This is the 21st century, we are highly mobile and live in a Global Village.
For those who think the SAF and NS isn't necessary, waste of time, waste of tax payers money, abuse of human rights, etc. I beg to differ. If SG ever got overrun by a foreign army, WE ALL lose our loved ones, our homes, life savings, CPF and possessions. WE ALL become stateless refugees with nothing but the clothes on our backs.
Allow me to be politically incorrect here. Lets face it, women are the spoils of war if warfare history is an accurate barometer. When a pack of armed soldiers want your girlfriend, sister, wife or daughter they won't ask for your permission. The women would be 'eaten' alive right in front of you and murdered cold blooded on the spot. And you'd be too terrified to do anything about it. While those murderous troops are at it, rest assured they won't be thinking about the rules of the Geneva Convention. If you think this sort of thing happens only in the movies you won't be laughing when such tragedy befalls you. One only have to look at China's tragic past in the 19th Century. Despite its size and population it was weak and divided and the 'Sick Man of Asia'. It got plundered and raped, first by Western colonial powers, then by the Japanese in World War 2. The most infamous of all was the 'Rape of Nanjing'.
The below boxed paragraph is what a friend of mine wrote in another forum, with my slight alteration.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The SAF have not fired a shot in anger. Neither is it a superpower with wonder weapons or have the benefit of actual combat experience. Nobody in their right minds would prefer that we did and have body bags returning and have parents cry over. As those anti-NS people sip their latte happily taking potshots at the SAF and SG behind the comfort of their computer keyboards or party and shop in Orchard Road, they are totally clueless to the many instances of harrassment on the high seas by a neighbouring ASEAN country harrassing our granite and sand barges. If not for the Republic of Singapore Navy and SAF do you think they wouldn't disrupt our Sea Lines Of Communication (SLOC) and livelihood? There are many other instances of harrassment not published in the newspapers.
Does it make all those anti-NS people feel good that all this is happening? While they get drunk enjoying their 'Sabun Party' at Sentosa's Siloso beach or boogey the night away at Zouks, just know (and be grateful) that there are Army/Armoured Combat units, RSAF combat jets and Naval units on 24-hour standby 365 days a year.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many do not remember another neighbouring ASEAN country's 'fishermen' using explosives to kill fish at sea (for an easier catch) and blame SG for lobbying explosives on their territorial waters. Just because we are ASEAN members doesn't mean we're always kissing cousins. There are elements that will ALWAYS push boundaries to provoke and test our patience and resilience, and shove us to test our mettle. Why? Because we're a small country and they feel we should kowtow and be subservient to them
Someone once said, "The SAF's role is to MINIMISE the country's vulnerability by deploying the strongest possible defence (within our means) against potential external threats. Its impossible to guard every installation and scan every visitor. Our goal is to REDUCE the threat to a tolerable level, so that it does not have a significant impact on SG's sovereignty and economy."
* Someone once asked me to name one potential external threat. I told him isn't it so obvious that M'sia's problems could have a spillover effect on SG? M'sia and SG seperated under acrimonious circumstances in 1965. SG did not fight for independence, it was forced upon us to rot and die. Today even after 44-years of independence certain people on both (!) sides of the causeway feel that SG should be forcibly taken back. Feelings run deep and 'healed' wounds are only superficial. Thankfully with the passage of time this has somewhat abated. Still, do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* Former M'sian PM Mahathir Mohd once said in reference to SG, "There are many ways to skin a cat" and more recently the late Sultan of Johore said, "I will make sure Pedra Branca returns to M'sia" despite the International Court of Justice awarding the islet to SG. The Sultan's provocative statement have many supporters. Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* In 1986 when Israeli Prime Minister Chaim Herzog visited SG protesters across the causeway went beserk. Many were frothing in the mouth with popped out eyes, fisted the air and stomped on SG flags and howled loud and long. But they forgot that SG is a sovereign and independent country, NOT a M'sian state. Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* And finally, this article appeared on ST 1st July 2008:
S'poreans might recall the 1991 M'sian - Indonesian joint military exercise codenamed "Malindo Darsasa 3AB". It involved an airborne assault by paratroopers in Southern Johore. The joint exercise was provocative in every sense of the word.
1) The airborne assault was codenamed "Pukul Habis" (Malay for Total Wipeout).
2) The drop zone was only 18km from SG.
3) The exercise occured on August 9th. 1991 - SG's 26th National Day.
The SAF's response triggered an Open Mobilisation on the EVE of National Day. The move signalled SG's knowledge of the upcoming exercise and determination not to welcome a "Trojan Horse" on its doorstep.
Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar, 06:17 PM
BPLforever (4.50pm),
What's the matter, getting hot under the collar? Remember, it is you who started name calling (page 2) first, hor? It is you who refuse to accept fact. The essence of my post is WOULD YOU DEFEND YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOUR PROPERTY from people who attack SG? But of course to say "Yes" is a massive loss of face, aye? If you feel my post is BS, ignore it or go click on Home And Garden :) I don't have an answer? MOI? Here you go again, MY LAST POST on this page and read especially the last paragraph,
http://comment.straitstimes.com/show...=30272&page=22
You see Mr. BPLforever telling me to shut up and sit down won't help you one bit. To borrow your own words "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." LOL-LOL-ROFL!
And since you said "The foreigners would kill S'poreans while we're fighting overseas", here's my scenario. Have you heard of the US govt (in WW2) who forced the internment of Japanese American citizens? It was approved by the US govt in the wake of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, Hawaii. Those Japanese are naturalised US citizens but were nevertheless packed off to War Relocation Camps. Is it not possible that the SG govt could do the same to your hero foreigners in SG before armed conflict starts? ;-) BTW your hero foreigners fight the SAF on SG's homeground with what, Lego toy tanks? Neither are guns readily available in 7-Eleven and Isetan. Unless you mean the plastic variety found in Toys R Us, LOL-LOL-ROFL!
You also said the Vietnamese community in SG number "100,000. Could be close to 200,000. The figures are not published despite S'poreans wanting to know." Hogwash! The figure is 14,000 mostly brides of S'porean men, students and those working in businesses. I hope this link works http://www.asiafirst.com/forum/lofiv...p/t191166.html
If you REALLY feel NS is meaningless perhaps emigration is an attractive option? This guarantees that your precious boy-boy does not suffer the same fate as his father (You) having to serve NS against his will. This govt cannot stop you from emigrating to foreign countries. SG ain't North Korea where you could get shot for trying to flee. There are about 200 countries in the world, take your pick. Unless of course you feel the pros of living in SG (warts and all) outweighs the cons. Never mind lah, let your boy-boy suffer in NS, your being comfortable is more important :D
Thank your lucky stars that you are allowed to rant about the govt behind the comfort of your computer without fear of retribution. Try this stunt in North Korea and you'd be taken away in the middle of the night and put to sleep permanently.
Yeah, its so cool, huh?
BPLforever
6 Mar, 08:10 PM
f14d_tomcat,
There are many Vietnamese students and workers here. Anyway, I used Vietnam as an example. I see you are trying you best to avoid the question.
Let's say we are in conflict with Philippines then. I know for sure there are more than 200,000 filipinos here.
Forget it, I doubt you will answer this question.
Do me a favour then. Answer this simple question.
In terms of defense only, is flooding this country with more than 3 million foreigners (population target of 6.5 million) good for the country. Just in terms of defense only.
Can you answer this simple question honestly without beating around the bush before you ask Singaporeans to give their life in vain.
xiadingwai
6 Mar, 09:32 PM
f14d_tomcat
Hello f14 , this is ASRAM missile over !
here we go again, yr previous post to me on another thread which is now closed , "You said you are not a hero. You don't have to be a hero to lay down your live to protect your loved ones from an enemy. It is an in-built mechanism in most of us adults to protect our family, much like parents would protect their children from harm even disregarding their own safety."
You are correct but most of us will never be able to protect our loved ones because we have NO chance, most will be buried under the rubble of concretes from collapsed HBD homes like an earthquake. You brought up past WW2 Japanese occupation etc. as ref. is no longer valid because today wars with SG does not need foot soldiers. Gaza conflicts with the Israelis is a very good war lecture so is the Iraq war. The big guys just need to send in their highly precision big heavy bullets on to her targets and we probably stay in prayers or watch the unwelcome airshow, within 48 hours it will be all over . It does not matter whether we are SGs, FTsor FWs. I for sure will leave first with my family and loved ones, more willing to give away my assets than my life for the stupid PAP n her military conscription with her top military scholars half *,1*,2* and 3* Peace time Generals not having any war experiences. I doubt a war happening to Singapore more likely a terrorist war. How to protect SG when a locked up terrorist Mat can escaped from detention . Haha.
BPLforever
6 Mar, 09:47 PM
Yes, then why have NS? Why not have a professional army? No need to spend more than S$11 billion dollars just for wayang when weapons and equipment will only rust.
Better to spend the money on Singaporeans' education, health etc.
We are all still loyal Singaporeans but nobody's son needs to die in training just for wayang.
Only professional soldiers who are well paid.
BPLforever
REPORT POST
6 Mar, 09:53 PM
By the way, xiadingwai has a very good point.
With 6.5 million people soon and a population density of more than 16,000 people packed together more tightly than sardines in a tin can, enemy only needs to fire one missile and all the HDB flats will come tumbling down like dominoes.
If you want to flood the country with millions of cheap foreign workers for questionable economic gains, then please don't talk about defending this country. Those who are flooding this tiny island with cheap foreign workers obviously, imho, are not thinking about 'defense', only about the money.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar, 11:09 PM
xiadingwai (Page 3, 9.32 pm), BPLforever (Page 3, 9.53pm)
The nuclear strike, one bomb, small country, no resources, turn off the tap, contaminate water supply, et al SG die theory is a hot favourite usually the result of GROSS ignorance and in many cases - mischief. Mischievious sceptics like you two are a dime a dozen. You two coots post like a bunch of Hong Lim Park Ah-Peks with their false dentures and bi-focal glasses or menopausal housewives in the wet market, Welcome to that club........LOL-LOL-ROFL!
To get a better understanding of SG's answer to your misconception click here
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/mi...island-8563-6/ (The best strategy to defending S'pore island).
Read especially OPSSG posts beginning from post #81-134. He is among the best posters in Defence Talk Forum. His job as a Defence Analyst Professional puts him in an excellent position to comment and analyse SG's defensive capabilities than anyone in ST Forum ever could. His posts are matured, coherent and he provides reliable links to drive home his points. We could all learn from his posts. There is all to gain and nothing to lose.
However should you two coots decide to post in DT Forum, be mindful of the rules and regulations because DT Forum moderators are intolerant of trolling and mischief postings and the like. Unlike ST Forum where practically anything goes, in DT Forum, generally speaking you are in the Big League, no pray-pray-one, hor? You've been advised don't say I didn't tell you. I eagerly look forward to both your monikers in DT Forum and lets see how you survive in a SERIOUS forum.
Being an aviation buff my interest on DT Forum is primarily towards Aviation threads. My personal favourite is the RSAF thread and there is an interesting exchange between OPSSG and bear_bear_sg. Both posters represent opposite ends of the spectrum. The former needs no introduction while the latter is an uninformed cynic, and I detect a little sarcasm as well. Beginning from Post #323 - 343,
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ai...sions-4117-22/
Once again, I eagerly look forward to both your monikers in DT Forum. Happy reading.
AbolishNS2abolishNS
6 Mar 10:15 AM
*2 of my uncles and one of my aunties were killed by the Japanese when they invaded Singapore; similar to many other people who were either tortured or killed in Singapore at that time.
My grandparents and father suffered hunger and humiliations during the Japanese occupation of Singapore.
My father told me to do my National Service well
Without being a regular; I contributed until the rank of Major [NS] and was CO of one Guards Battalion and Brigade Dy S3.
*But now traitors had let in excessive numbers of cheap foreigners; invaded n mess up our lives in Singapore. This is same like the Japanese enemies who invaded n exploited Singapore 2 generations ago.
Many of us lost our biz, are jobless, missed local university places, missed scholarships, missed preferred primary school places, lost COEs, couldn’t afford public HDB flats, disrupted by foreigner queues jumping for buses, for trains, for tickets, etc. We are forced to be more boorish.
Many of us got squeezed out of PMET jobs and now have to work as taxi drivers, insurance n financial derivatives agents, property agents, etc.
*Now my 80+ yrs old father have to stand while foreigners occupy Priority/Reserved seats in MRT trains and queue behind foreigners at hospitals n polyclinics.
Foreigner enemies are all here amongst us and probably the only task left for our uniformed armed forces is to help our ruling party clear oppositions n protestors from our streets.
Now, unlike my father, I tell my sons that National Service is meaningless.
I also told my sons not to hurry in marriage and least of all having children who may become financial slaves to the banks thru buying expensive houses, cars, and also tax slaves etc.
IQ is genetic; ordinary locals got squeezed down the artificial Population ‘Bell Curve’ by foreigners in Singapore.
Quotas in Uni, JCs, Polys limiting locals plus FTs also squeezed us down the artificial Population 'Bell Curve' in Sgp.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar 02:37 PM
AbolishNS2abolishNS (Major NS CO Guards BN DYS3), (Page 1, 10.15am),
allow me a contrarian view on your "NS is meaningless" comment.
My family and me were born here and lived here all our lives. If SG ever got attacked by an invading army I WILL defend it. Just because certain govt policies do not fit me doesn't mean I would hand SG over to the enemy on a silver platter. I am NOT, repeat NOT, defending the govt, foreign talents, elites and permanent residents. To me these are SEPERATE ISSUES.
SG became a Japanese colony (Syonanto) Feb. 1942 - Aug. 1945 because we did not have an armed forces. Our British colonial masters surrendered unconditionally to the Japanese. Nobody owes SG a living. We are responsible for our own defence and cannot rely solely on foreign powers . My maternal grandfather an admin assistant in the British Army was taken away by Japanese troops never to be seen or heard of again. My mother who was six years old at that time grew up without a father. The rape and slaughter of civilians was common. My late grandmother said, "To say that life was tough under the Japanese occupation is a gross understatement."
When SG got kicked out of the M'sian federation (1965) we had nothing and started from scratch. Today despite warts and all, I am confident that the SAF can more than hold its own in this region. I believe when the $hit hits the fan, many SG men including the anti-NS crowd (and those who poke fun at the SAF) would defend SG with their lives BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE PROTECTING THEIR LOVED ONES. If SG falls it means we lose our loved ones, our life savings in the banks, our CPF and homes. We lose EVERYTHING except the clothes on our backs and become instant penniless refugees.
This post is NOT arrogance, boot licking, self congratulations, chest thumping, complacency or scare mongering. That is NOT my intention. Neither am I an elite. I am just an ordinary working man Joe who doesn't even make $2k salary per month.
Thank You for reading
f14d_tomcat
Corporal (NS)
[Proceed beyond this point at your own risk. :-) This is when the same old dead horse with new bows and ribbons gets trotted out.]
BPLforever
6 Mar, 02:54 PM
f14d_tomcat,
Many Singaporeans, including myself, are willing to give up our lives to fight for our country but that doesn't mean we should die in vain. It is pointless to fight if we know that Singapore cannot be defended.
Please help my friends and me understand the role of so many foreigners here in Singapore when we risk our lives for this country.
Suppose Singapore was in a conflict with Vietnam. Now, we all know that there are more than 100,00 Vietnamese citizens living and working here. Many for selfish reasons, have become PRs.
What do you think these Vietnamese would be doing when all Singaporean males are abroad fighting?
Now we all know that Singaporean has a very credible army. Suppose we had the upper hand and were wiping out many Vietnamese soldiers. How do you think these Vietnamese living here would feel and what would do you think they will do? Many of them have family members in the Vietnamese army after all? What if their familiy members got killed? Would they be supporting Singapore's cause or sabotaging our efforts?
Would they harm our helpless wives and children left behind in Singapore?
My friend and I are very concerned about this? We can concentrate on defending our country without knowing how these Vietnamese citizens, who are loyal to their home country, would behave.
If they are going to sabotage our efforts and attack the helpless women and children here, it makes no sense to have NS.
Maybe we will not have any conflict with our neighbouring countries, you say. NS is to defend against aliens from Mars???
Tell us why then NS is so important. I still don't get it with so many foreigners here and 2 million more on their way here.
Please explain to us.
Blind faith and blind allegiance doesn't win wars.
RotiPrataMan
6 Mar, 03:13 PM
14d_tomcat
Vietnam was taken as an example by BPLforever.
Imagine a different scenario and let's say Singapore goes to war against anyone of these countries :
China
Philippines
Thailand
Malaysia
Indonesia..
all of which have more than 100,000 of their citizens living in Singapore as FWs / FTs / PRs.
Would they harm our helpless wives and children left behind in Singapore when you go off to fight their countrymen ??
It's not a silly or irrelevant question..
So, please let us have your true and honest answer on it.
f14d_tomcat
Yesterday, 03:37 PM
BPLforever (2.56pm),
Scroll down to the LAST POST to get your answer here http://comment.straitstimes.com/show...=30272&page=22 First you claim 200,000 Vietnamese in SG, now you say 100,000. Can you make up your mind?
RotiPrataMan (3.13PM),
Your answer is on the link provided above. Supposing going by your scenario the SAF goes to war against one of these countries and these non-military trained FTs, PRs, FWs attack S'poreans. Would you fight back against them to protect your loved ones and your property? I strongly believe you would. That is the essence of my post all along.
f14d_tomcat
February 24, 2010 Wednesday, 03:52 AM [From an on-line comment on "Quality of life that's hard to beat" which apparently precedes this on-going discussion between BPLforever and f14d_tomcat]
BPLforever,
Here's my view on why NS is a necessary evil. However before I begin let me state categorically that I DO NOT think that S'poreans who emigrate are 'Quitters' as some are wont to do. This is the 21st century, we are highly mobile and live in a Global Village.
For those who think the SAF and NS isn't necessary, waste of time, waste of tax payers money, abuse of human rights, etc. I beg to differ. If SG ever got overrun by a foreign army, WE ALL lose our loved ones, our homes, life savings, CPF and possessions. WE ALL become stateless refugees with nothing but the clothes on our backs.
Allow me to be politically incorrect here. Lets face it, women are the spoils of war if warfare history is an accurate barometer. When a pack of armed soldiers want your girlfriend, sister, wife or daughter they won't ask for your permission. The women would be 'eaten' alive right in front of you and murdered cold blooded on the spot. And you'd be too terrified to do anything about it. While those murderous troops are at it, rest assured they won't be thinking about the rules of the Geneva Convention. If you think this sort of thing happens only in the movies you won't be laughing when such tragedy befalls you. One only have to look at China's tragic past in the 19th Century. Despite its size and population it was weak and divided and the 'Sick Man of Asia'. It got plundered and raped, first by Western colonial powers, then by the Japanese in World War 2. The most infamous of all was the 'Rape of Nanjing'.
The below boxed paragraph is what a friend of mine wrote in another forum, with my slight alteration.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The SAF have not fired a shot in anger. Neither is it a superpower with wonder weapons or have the benefit of actual combat experience. Nobody in their right minds would prefer that we did and have body bags returning and have parents cry over. As those anti-NS people sip their latte happily taking potshots at the SAF and SG behind the comfort of their computer keyboards or party and shop in Orchard Road, they are totally clueless to the many instances of harrassment on the high seas by a neighbouring ASEAN country harrassing our granite and sand barges. If not for the Republic of Singapore Navy and SAF do you think they wouldn't disrupt our Sea Lines Of Communication (SLOC) and livelihood? There are many other instances of harrassment not published in the newspapers.
Does it make all those anti-NS people feel good that all this is happening? While they get drunk enjoying their 'Sabun Party' at Sentosa's Siloso beach or boogey the night away at Zouks, just know (and be grateful) that there are Army/Armoured Combat units, RSAF combat jets and Naval units on 24-hour standby 365 days a year.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many do not remember another neighbouring ASEAN country's 'fishermen' using explosives to kill fish at sea (for an easier catch) and blame SG for lobbying explosives on their territorial waters. Just because we are ASEAN members doesn't mean we're always kissing cousins. There are elements that will ALWAYS push boundaries to provoke and test our patience and resilience, and shove us to test our mettle. Why? Because we're a small country and they feel we should kowtow and be subservient to them
Someone once said, "The SAF's role is to MINIMISE the country's vulnerability by deploying the strongest possible defence (within our means) against potential external threats. Its impossible to guard every installation and scan every visitor. Our goal is to REDUCE the threat to a tolerable level, so that it does not have a significant impact on SG's sovereignty and economy."
* Someone once asked me to name one potential external threat. I told him isn't it so obvious that M'sia's problems could have a spillover effect on SG? M'sia and SG seperated under acrimonious circumstances in 1965. SG did not fight for independence, it was forced upon us to rot and die. Today even after 44-years of independence certain people on both (!) sides of the causeway feel that SG should be forcibly taken back. Feelings run deep and 'healed' wounds are only superficial. Thankfully with the passage of time this has somewhat abated. Still, do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* Former M'sian PM Mahathir Mohd once said in reference to SG, "There are many ways to skin a cat" and more recently the late Sultan of Johore said, "I will make sure Pedra Branca returns to M'sia" despite the International Court of Justice awarding the islet to SG. The Sultan's provocative statement have many supporters. Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* In 1986 when Israeli Prime Minister Chaim Herzog visited SG protesters across the causeway went beserk. Many were frothing in the mouth with popped out eyes, fisted the air and stomped on SG flags and howled loud and long. But they forgot that SG is a sovereign and independent country, NOT a M'sian state. Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
* And finally, this article appeared on ST 1st July 2008:
S'poreans might recall the 1991 M'sian - Indonesian joint military exercise codenamed "Malindo Darsasa 3AB". It involved an airborne assault by paratroopers in Southern Johore. The joint exercise was provocative in every sense of the word.
1) The airborne assault was codenamed "Pukul Habis" (Malay for Total Wipeout).
2) The drop zone was only 18km from SG.
3) The exercise occured on August 9th. 1991 - SG's 26th National Day.
The SAF's response triggered an Open Mobilisation on the EVE of National Day. The move signalled SG's knowledge of the upcoming exercise and determination not to welcome a "Trojan Horse" on its doorstep.
Do we need an SAF and NS? I say yes.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar, 06:17 PM
BPLforever (4.50pm),
What's the matter, getting hot under the collar? Remember, it is you who started name calling (page 2) first, hor? It is you who refuse to accept fact. The essence of my post is WOULD YOU DEFEND YOUR LOVED ONES AND YOUR PROPERTY from people who attack SG? But of course to say "Yes" is a massive loss of face, aye? If you feel my post is BS, ignore it or go click on Home And Garden :) I don't have an answer? MOI? Here you go again, MY LAST POST on this page and read especially the last paragraph,
http://comment.straitstimes.com/show...=30272&page=22
You see Mr. BPLforever telling me to shut up and sit down won't help you one bit. To borrow your own words "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." LOL-LOL-ROFL!
And since you said "The foreigners would kill S'poreans while we're fighting overseas", here's my scenario. Have you heard of the US govt (in WW2) who forced the internment of Japanese American citizens? It was approved by the US govt in the wake of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, Hawaii. Those Japanese are naturalised US citizens but were nevertheless packed off to War Relocation Camps. Is it not possible that the SG govt could do the same to your hero foreigners in SG before armed conflict starts? ;-) BTW your hero foreigners fight the SAF on SG's homeground with what, Lego toy tanks? Neither are guns readily available in 7-Eleven and Isetan. Unless you mean the plastic variety found in Toys R Us, LOL-LOL-ROFL!
You also said the Vietnamese community in SG number "100,000. Could be close to 200,000. The figures are not published despite S'poreans wanting to know." Hogwash! The figure is 14,000 mostly brides of S'porean men, students and those working in businesses. I hope this link works http://www.asiafirst.com/forum/lofiv...p/t191166.html
If you REALLY feel NS is meaningless perhaps emigration is an attractive option? This guarantees that your precious boy-boy does not suffer the same fate as his father (You) having to serve NS against his will. This govt cannot stop you from emigrating to foreign countries. SG ain't North Korea where you could get shot for trying to flee. There are about 200 countries in the world, take your pick. Unless of course you feel the pros of living in SG (warts and all) outweighs the cons. Never mind lah, let your boy-boy suffer in NS, your being comfortable is more important :D
Thank your lucky stars that you are allowed to rant about the govt behind the comfort of your computer without fear of retribution. Try this stunt in North Korea and you'd be taken away in the middle of the night and put to sleep permanently.
Yeah, its so cool, huh?
BPLforever
6 Mar, 08:10 PM
f14d_tomcat,
There are many Vietnamese students and workers here. Anyway, I used Vietnam as an example. I see you are trying you best to avoid the question.
Let's say we are in conflict with Philippines then. I know for sure there are more than 200,000 filipinos here.
Forget it, I doubt you will answer this question.
Do me a favour then. Answer this simple question.
In terms of defense only, is flooding this country with more than 3 million foreigners (population target of 6.5 million) good for the country. Just in terms of defense only.
Can you answer this simple question honestly without beating around the bush before you ask Singaporeans to give their life in vain.
xiadingwai
6 Mar, 09:32 PM
f14d_tomcat
Hello f14 , this is ASRAM missile over !
here we go again, yr previous post to me on another thread which is now closed , "You said you are not a hero. You don't have to be a hero to lay down your live to protect your loved ones from an enemy. It is an in-built mechanism in most of us adults to protect our family, much like parents would protect their children from harm even disregarding their own safety."
You are correct but most of us will never be able to protect our loved ones because we have NO chance, most will be buried under the rubble of concretes from collapsed HBD homes like an earthquake. You brought up past WW2 Japanese occupation etc. as ref. is no longer valid because today wars with SG does not need foot soldiers. Gaza conflicts with the Israelis is a very good war lecture so is the Iraq war. The big guys just need to send in their highly precision big heavy bullets on to her targets and we probably stay in prayers or watch the unwelcome airshow, within 48 hours it will be all over . It does not matter whether we are SGs, FTsor FWs. I for sure will leave first with my family and loved ones, more willing to give away my assets than my life for the stupid PAP n her military conscription with her top military scholars half *,1*,2* and 3* Peace time Generals not having any war experiences. I doubt a war happening to Singapore more likely a terrorist war. How to protect SG when a locked up terrorist Mat can escaped from detention . Haha.
BPLforever
6 Mar, 09:47 PM
Yes, then why have NS? Why not have a professional army? No need to spend more than S$11 billion dollars just for wayang when weapons and equipment will only rust.
Better to spend the money on Singaporeans' education, health etc.
We are all still loyal Singaporeans but nobody's son needs to die in training just for wayang.
Only professional soldiers who are well paid.
BPLforever
REPORT POST
6 Mar, 09:53 PM
By the way, xiadingwai has a very good point.
With 6.5 million people soon and a population density of more than 16,000 people packed together more tightly than sardines in a tin can, enemy only needs to fire one missile and all the HDB flats will come tumbling down like dominoes.
If you want to flood the country with millions of cheap foreign workers for questionable economic gains, then please don't talk about defending this country. Those who are flooding this tiny island with cheap foreign workers obviously, imho, are not thinking about 'defense', only about the money.
f14d_tomcat
6 Mar, 11:09 PM
xiadingwai (Page 3, 9.32 pm), BPLforever (Page 3, 9.53pm)
The nuclear strike, one bomb, small country, no resources, turn off the tap, contaminate water supply, et al SG die theory is a hot favourite usually the result of GROSS ignorance and in many cases - mischief. Mischievious sceptics like you two are a dime a dozen. You two coots post like a bunch of Hong Lim Park Ah-Peks with their false dentures and bi-focal glasses or menopausal housewives in the wet market, Welcome to that club........LOL-LOL-ROFL!
To get a better understanding of SG's answer to your misconception click here
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/mi...island-8563-6/ (The best strategy to defending S'pore island).
Read especially OPSSG posts beginning from post #81-134. He is among the best posters in Defence Talk Forum. His job as a Defence Analyst Professional puts him in an excellent position to comment and analyse SG's defensive capabilities than anyone in ST Forum ever could. His posts are matured, coherent and he provides reliable links to drive home his points. We could all learn from his posts. There is all to gain and nothing to lose.
However should you two coots decide to post in DT Forum, be mindful of the rules and regulations because DT Forum moderators are intolerant of trolling and mischief postings and the like. Unlike ST Forum where practically anything goes, in DT Forum, generally speaking you are in the Big League, no pray-pray-one, hor? You've been advised don't say I didn't tell you. I eagerly look forward to both your monikers in DT Forum and lets see how you survive in a SERIOUS forum.
Being an aviation buff my interest on DT Forum is primarily towards Aviation threads. My personal favourite is the RSAF thread and there is an interesting exchange between OPSSG and bear_bear_sg. Both posters represent opposite ends of the spectrum. The former needs no introduction while the latter is an uninformed cynic, and I detect a little sarcasm as well. Beginning from Post #323 - 343,
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ai...sions-4117-22/
Once again, I eagerly look forward to both your monikers in DT Forum. Happy reading.
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